While I agree with Skip, that we as a country should do something now and we as consumers need to be pro-active. I agree with Ben that nothing is going to change until there is no alternative but to. America is very reactionary, we don’t do anthing about a problem until some major breakdown happens. For example 9/11, global warming, pollution. No one is going to take Nuclear power plat security seriously until some one blows one up and then we’ll be having congressional hearings for years afterward. Alternative fuel is the same way. Until there’s no gas then we’re not going to change. One thing that bothers be is that automakers aren’t building enough hybrid cars to meet demand.You have to get on a waiting list. Come on, like gas prices are ever going to get cheaper. The demand is there, so why isn’t the market working? While like Ben says it really is about the market, unless people stop buying gas hogs, the auto industry isn’t going to stop making them. The American auto industry is SUV dependent and I can only see them fighting the hybrid market since they would have to spend mucho capital retooling their factories.
As far as hydrogen technology is concerned. It makes sense that at this point it’s inefficiant. The tech has not been developed. I’m sure the first engines and batteries weren’t all that great either. If we were to embrace it then I’m sure that we would make it efficiant awful dang quick. Otherwise we could just go back horse an buggy. Note also, that with out a viable energy source and with out gasoline, the planet cannot support it’s current population. Farm tractors and equipment run on gas…. http://www.georgewbush.org has some great bumper stickers!
R.
MN
Ben May 27, 2004 6:15 pm
Im not saying we should wait on the economy…but I dont think anything will be accepted until we have to have it, and right now we just dont have to have it.
Skip May 27, 2004 5:59 pm
I have to agree with Ben to some degree on the fuel cells. Sealing an easily refillable fuel tank of hydrogen will be extremely difficult due to the size of the hydrogen atoms. However, fuel cells are only batteries. They are not a source of energy. Due to the inefficiencies involved, more energy will be required to charge them up than will be retrieved. Where does this energy come from right now? The good old middle east.
Scott’s bibliography is a good one, especially From the Wilderness.
Unlike Ben, I don’t think we can wait for the “wisdom” of the marketplace to guide us to nirvana. It’s guiding principal is “maximize the bottom line now”. Maybe Mark can fill in the details, but a while back I remember reading about some sort of economics conference right after WW2 in which the underlying assumtion was that the earth’s resourses are infinate. We are seeing the results of those assumtions now. I guess the simpler minds are still hoping to discover that perpetual motion machine. Like it or not, “Peak Oil” production has already occured with the reserves in the United States back in the 70s. The reserves in the middle east are not that vast and there are a lot fewer new wells being discovered these days. I feel that the bottom will drop out faster than we think and we better be ready for it.
Dave Scott May 27, 2004 2:24 pm
We must start doing everything we possibly can to conserve oil, including high taxes on gas. So far, nobody has mentioned “peak oil.” This is a reality that we are about to face very soon. It’s probably too late to make the necessary changes that will have to be made to mitigate the problem. The mainstream media is just begining to make oblique references to the upcoming situation. There is an article in the current “National Geographic†that talks about peak oil. However, it doesn’t really discuss what the real implications of the end of plentiful, cheap oil will be for the developed, industrialized world.
Below are the books that I’ve read about peak oil in the past few months:
“The Party’s Over†by Richard Heinberg*
“Hubbert’s Peak: The Impending World Oil Shortage†by Kenneth S. Deffeyes
“The Coming Oil Crisis†by Colin J. Campbell
“The Oil Age Is Over” by Matt Savinar, J.D
Actually, I think the first time I ever heard about the upcoming oil situation was while listening to Mike Malloy’s talk radio program about 5 years ago, when he was on WLS in Chicago and had Jay Hanson on who put together the “Die Off” web site.
In addition to the books shown above, the following web sites provide a variety of information on the subject of the future depletion of oil and natural gas:
DIE OFF – a population crash resource page (This site has a great deal to say about the peak and eventual drop off in oil and the affect it will have on population) http://www.dieoff.com/
P E A K  O I L  |  Lecture http://www.hubbertpeak.com/de/lecture.html
Hubbert Peak of Oil Production http://www.hubbertpeak.com/gas/
MuseLetter – a monthly exploration of cultura… http://www.museletter.com/
From The Wilderness Publications http://www.copvcia.com/
Expert Witness Radio with Mike Levine and Kri… http://expertwitnessradio.org/Oilcrash:
The Peak of World Oil Production an… http://oilcrash.mara.nzoffice.com/olduyai.htm
ASPO the Association for the Study of Peak Oil http://www.peakoil.net/
*Post Carbon Institute http://www.postcarbon.org/
Life After the Oil Crash http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Index.html
Dave Scott
Johnstown, PA
Ben May 27, 2004 11:53 am
There will come a time when and alternative fuel will be needed, and the economy will determine it. When we dont have enough oil people will be willing to use an alternative means until then there will not be enough support. I dont think any of you want to be driving around in hydrogen cars, that is like driving around in a bomb, gas is highly flamable, hydrogen is highly explosive…we are talking about holes in the ground when there is a wreck. Battery is the next best thing and you dont get near the power. So when the time comes that a new fuel has to be produced the money funding the technology will be available and a new means of fuel will be born.
Ben
While I agree with Skip, that we as a country should do something now and we as consumers need to be pro-active. I agree with Ben that nothing is going to change until there is no ... More >>
RikAtomika May 27, 2004 11:26 pm
While I agree with Skip, that we as a country should do something now and we as consumers need to be pro-active. I agree with Ben that nothing is going to change until there is no alternative but to. America is very reactionary, we don’t do anthing about a problem until some major breakdown happens. For example 9/11, global warming, pollution. No one is going to take Nuclear power plat security seriously until some one blows one up and then we’ll be having congressional hearings for years afterward. Alternative fuel is the same way. Until there’s no gas then we’re not going to change. One thing that bothers be is that automakers aren’t building enough hybrid cars to meet demand.You have to get on a waiting list. Come on, like gas prices are ever going to get cheaper. The demand is there, so why isn’t the market working? While like Ben says it really is about the market, unless people stop buying gas hogs, the auto industry isn’t going to stop making them. The American auto industry is SUV dependent and I can only see them fighting the hybrid market since they would have to spend mucho capital retooling their factories.
As far as hydrogen technology is concerned. It makes sense that at this point it’s inefficiant. The tech has not been developed. I’m sure the first engines and batteries weren’t all that great either. If we were to embrace it then I’m sure that we would make it efficiant awful dang quick. Otherwise we could just go back horse an buggy. Note also, that with out a viable energy source and with out gasoline, the planet cannot support it’s current population. Farm tractors and equipment run on gas….
http://www.georgewbush.org has some great bumper stickers!
R.
MN
Ben May 27, 2004 6:15 pm
Im not saying we should wait on the economy…but I dont think anything will be accepted until we have to have it, and right now we just dont have to have it.
Skip May 27, 2004 5:59 pm
I have to agree with Ben to some degree on the fuel cells. Sealing an easily refillable fuel tank of hydrogen will be extremely difficult due to the size of the hydrogen atoms. However, fuel cells are only batteries. They are not a source of energy. Due to the inefficiencies involved, more energy will be required to charge them up than will be retrieved. Where does this energy come from right now? The good old middle east.
Scott’s bibliography is a good one, especially From the Wilderness.
Unlike Ben, I don’t think we can wait for the “wisdom” of the marketplace to guide us to nirvana. It’s guiding principal is “maximize the bottom line now”. Maybe Mark can fill in the details, but a while back I remember reading about some sort of economics conference right after WW2 in which the underlying assumtion was that the earth’s resourses are infinate. We are seeing the results of those assumtions now. I guess the simpler minds are still hoping to discover that perpetual motion machine. Like it or not, “Peak Oil” production has already occured with the reserves in the United States back in the 70s. The reserves in the middle east are not that vast and there are a lot fewer new wells being discovered these days. I feel that the bottom will drop out faster than we think and we better be ready for it.
Dave Scott May 27, 2004 2:24 pm
We must start doing everything we possibly can to conserve oil, including high taxes on gas. So far, nobody has mentioned “peak oil.” This is a reality that we are about to face very soon. It’s probably too late to make the necessary changes that will have to be made to mitigate the problem. The mainstream media is just begining to make oblique references to the upcoming situation. There is an article in the current “National Geographic†that talks about peak oil. However, it doesn’t really discuss what the real implications of the end of plentiful, cheap oil will be for the developed, industrialized world.
Below are the books that I’ve read about peak oil in the past few months:
“The Party’s Over†by Richard Heinberg*
“Hubbert’s Peak: The Impending World Oil Shortage†by Kenneth S. Deffeyes
“The Coming Oil Crisis†by Colin J. Campbell
“The Oil Age Is Over” by Matt Savinar, J.D
Actually, I think the first time I ever heard about the upcoming oil situation was while listening to Mike Malloy’s talk radio program about 5 years ago, when he was on WLS in Chicago and had Jay Hanson on who put together the “Die Off” web site.
In addition to the books shown above, the following web sites provide a variety of information on the subject of the future depletion of oil and natural gas:
DIE OFF – a population crash resource page (This site has a great deal to say about the peak and eventual drop off in oil and the affect it will have on population) http://www.dieoff.com/
P E A K  O I L  |  Lecture http://www.hubbertpeak.com/de/lecture.html
Hubbert Peak of Oil Production http://www.hubbertpeak.com/gas/
MuseLetter – a monthly exploration of cultura… http://www.museletter.com/
From The Wilderness Publications http://www.copvcia.com/
Expert Witness Radio with Mike Levine and Kri… http://expertwitnessradio.org/Oilcrash:
The Peak of World Oil Production an… http://oilcrash.mara.nzoffice.com/olduyai.htm
ASPO the Association for the Study of Peak Oil http://www.peakoil.net/
*Post Carbon Institute http://www.postcarbon.org/
Life After the Oil Crash http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Index.html
Dave Scott
Johnstown, PA
Ben May 27, 2004 11:53 am
There will come a time when and alternative fuel will be needed, and the economy will determine it. When we dont have enough oil people will be willing to use an alternative means until then there will not be enough support. I dont think any of you want to be driving around in hydrogen cars, that is like driving around in a bomb, gas is highly flamable, hydrogen is highly explosive…we are talking about holes in the ground when there is a wreck. Battery is the next best thing and you dont get near the power. So when the time comes that a new fuel has to be produced the money funding the technology will be available and a new means of fuel will be born.
Ben